Talk:Blaze Release
Credibility? 1. It is said that the black flames of the ameratsu is the strongest fire jutsu. This "Blaze Release" is saying that it's a different jutsu that uses the same black flames. That doesn's sound right. 2. When he extinguished the black flames from Kirin and Killer Bee, it showed that Sasuke experienced extreme pain in his eyes after doing such. That is evidence alone that this "Blaze Release", being described as controling the black flames, is nothing more than Sasuke's grand talent in the Mangekyo Sharingan. 3. The uchiha clan was a clan that thrived on war, if they contained such a kekkei genkai of mass proportions and didn't realize it, then how could Sasuke have in the heat of battle. With all, if not almost all, kekkei genkai are noticed and exploited for the ninja's use sooner in life than the mid to late teens (EX. Haku discovering around the age of 8). 4. If this was a bloodline limit, then why didn't sasuke learn about it or figure it out before the ameratsu? 5. Other bloodlines don't follow the nature of one of the two elements. Ice isn't water, or wind. Wood isn't earth, or water. Storm isn't lightning, or water. Although, it's more of lighting moving in the manner of water, making it mutualistic. Lava isn't earth, or fire. Boil(boiling mist) isn't fire, or water. "Blaze" only resembles fire. There is no atribute that would make it lighting. The key point of the fire is the flames produced, and controled, by the Ameratsu. This is simply great mastery of the sharingan, for it has no resemblance to a bloodline limit, while containing the sharingan's abilities. --Komikale (talk) 01:06, March 6, 2011 (UTC)Mikale koe Blaze Release is a very unusual way, and to this day makes us scratch our heads. Given how little we know about it, all we could do is use what we already know about chakra natures. My guess in particular is that Blaze Release is Fire Release being modified by Yin Release, which might not actually be a kekkei genkai at all, given how Yin and Yang seem to be the basis of all so far non-elemental ninjutsu. About your points: #Blaze Release so far has shown to be controlling and manipulating the flames in ways Amaterasu was never shown to be used. #Putting out the flames might be Blaze Release, we don't know. Sasuke did that way before we could ever think something like Blaze Release would come along. As per the previous point, Blaze Release seems to be about a precise manipulation of the flames. Sasuke had also just discovered he could do that, plus later on he got his hate on, so that must count for something. Blaze Release could be to Mangekyō what Mangekyō is to the regular Sharingan. #There are very few known people who awakened the Mangekyō Sharingan. Haku doing the water controlling was anime-only, that doesn't count. For all we know from the manga, the first time he actually used his kekkei genkai was when he killed his father. #Considering what Blaze Release appears to be, it is about manipulating the flames. It's something even Itachi didn't do. Of course we would have to learn Amaterasu before using Blaze Release. What you're suggesting is akin to Naruto learning Rasenshuriken before Rasengan. #The fact Blaze Release is so dissimilar to other advanced natures, and the fact it appears to come from a dōjutsu is what causes the afore-mentioned head scratching. We're not saying that Blaze is fire and lightning, and if you're talking about the image in the nature transformation page, it's just there because we had pick a spot for it to be, and fire and lightning were, according to the established "two elements into one" rule, the least speculative choice, and the fact it has a question mark denotes that it is a speculation, a guess. Ice is technically solid water. Lava is technically molten earth. Mist is technically water particles in the air. As mentioned, Blaze Release is highly unusual, considering previously established rules for nature transformation, so until the next databook or more manga exposition, we work with what we have. Omnibender - Talk - 01:23, March 6, 2011 (UTC) The main summary of your information is that it's a greater mangekyo manipulation. Since ameratsu was already described being the strongest fire-style ability, it is above all others without use of ying or yang. For the bloodline limits you mentioned, they're a combination of the two elements, not claiming all the abilities of one. The point of my involvement on this is to try to have it removed from kekkei genkai because it does not associate as one. I will be okay if it becomes a mangakyo ability that controls the fire, but I am putting up this argument that it does not associate with the bloodlines it is listed with. --Komikale (talk) 01:37, March 6, 2011 (UTC)mikale There are, in my opinion, two reasons why Blaze Release is listed as a kekkei genkai: #So far, it was only shown to manipulate Amaterasu, which is a kekkei genkai ninjutsu. It's not as if Sasuke had used it the manipulate another Fire Release technique. It was used with his Mangekyō Sharingan, the left eye if I'm not mistaken, so a kekkei genkai is necessary to use it. #The mechanics of nature transformation so far says that if an element isn't one of the basic five, it is an advanced one, formed by merging of two or more elements. Such a thing can only be achieved by having a proper bloodline, or by having the ability to come from a tailed beast. Even if it turns out not to be a kekkei genkai, at the moment, there are more things suggesting it is one than there are things suggesting it's not. Regardless, should it be revealed not to be a kekkei genkai, it'll be changed accordingly. Omnibender - Talk - 01:47, March 6, 2011 (UTC) But, in the context of a doujutsu having relations to the visual aspects, Sasuke's pain after it can only mean that it is nothing more than an advancement on the ameratsu, in which ameratsu was declared the strongest "fire-element" jutsu. Also, in the point of view of the writter, why would he make a bloodline limit that is completely unheard of until Sasuke when Itachi wasn't able to do so. If it was a bloodline, Itachi should be able to use it. The argument you could make there is that Itachi didn't inherit it though. Back to the main point, the writer making a new kekkei genkai that would depend solely on someone gaining an extreme state, the mangekyo sharingan, before being able to use such ability is somewhat obsurd. I don't beilive anyone would stand for something that iffy. In the spirit of the kekkei genkai being combined elements, it would also be obsurd assuming that a comination fire-lightning element would only burn and engulf, having no attribute twords lightning. We're no Kishimoto, we don't know what he means, or what the purpose of this is. As I said previously, nothing in this article suggests that Blaze Release is a combination of fire and lightning. The one thing which does that in the entire wiki is the image, and again, there is a question mark showing that it's a speculation, the icon being added there solely for the purpose of being there, instead of, say wind and lightning. All information regarding Blaze Release is written based on everything the manga has ever said, and will continue to be so as more information is divulged. Omnibender - Talk - 02:54, March 6, 2011 (UTC) No, we're not, but he is the rational source behind the story so he wouldn't make any irrational facts about such strong jutsu that wouldn't follow the rules he has displayed. This article does not display it being a combination, but this site shows that's how it is. I don't agree with that last statement. I find that there has been more than enough information twords this just being an expansion of the mangakyo sharingan and that this element is useless to have, due to the fact it's just fire ability and doujutsu.--Komikale (talk) 03:22, March 6, 2011 (UTC)mikale Then until more information becomes available, we'll agree to disagree. Omnibender - Talk - 03:33, March 6, 2011 (UTC) I can handle to let go and agree with that. --Komikale (talk) 03:35, March 6, 2011 (UTC)mikale two points one: is this based on something from one of the fan books, and if so could someone put a reference there because it seems like all he did was learn how to manipulate the black flames and everyone just started calling it some new type of special release/nature. two: for all the people arguing over what natures are included here, but the only thing I've seen is that it says he uses his other eye to manipulate the flames. So wouldn't that sort of shine a better light on how it's done, the fact he's using the eye that controls illusions to do it, rather than one very long page speculating about is it fire plus fire or fire plus lightning? I mean one of lightning thing is just weird, and fire plus fire is just... fire. But even the brief discription here seems to be largely speculative while presenting itself as affermative, saying we just don't know what nature is involved. It's the same black flames, he can just control them. Reading the article though, you wouldn't know that. It comes across like it's some great new nature manipulation that we just don't know anything about yet. I don't know where any of that came from, unless you want to consider the black flames nature manipulation to begin with. But frankly, since the sharingan abilities seem to almost all revolve around illusion and bridging the gap between illusion and reality, MY money's on the black flames and this being exactly the same. It's got more to do with genjutsu than fire. (talk) 11:21, April 22, 2011 (UTC) miah *one: Sasuke himself called it "Enton" or "blaze release" *two:I don't remember anyone speculating the natures in the articles at least we don't do that. If it's there now it's vandalism. We don't know the mechanic of the technique so we can only add what we know for now *three: tl;dr.--Cerez365™☺ 11:26, April 22, 2011 (UTC) As far as speculating I was mostly talking about this talk page, but wouldn't the enton label apply to amaterasu in general, not just being able to manipulate/shape it? I mean that's like saying because kakashi's dog lightning thing is really shaped differently it's not lightning. It's still the same thing, he's just manipulating it so to be more specific I should say I take issue with calling simply the manipulation of amaterasu blaze release with no mention of it on the amaterasu page. Even looking at the article though, I do think it's a bit over speculative: "Blaze Release... is an advanced chakra nature... It is unknown what this nature entails." And mostly because this is refering specifically to the manipulation of amaterasu, I think that bothers me. I would rather see this merged with amaterasu in general, with a mention of sasuke's ability to manipulate the flames using his other eye. Mostly because, manipulating an element doesn't make it another element, does it? I don't see the logic in calling it a new element just because he can shape and manipulate the flames when the flames themselves substance-wise don't seem to have changed at all. They're still the same black flames. I did forget about that quick mention though, and I've not seen the anime episode where he says that, but at least in the manga I don't remember it actually showing him manipulating the flames, it just showed the flames on the sand afterward. Even looking at it again, I'd assume he was refering to amaterasu in general. (talk) 12:25, April 22, 2011 (UTC)miah :Friend, unless you have an issue with the two sentences that comprises the article, fine. Otherwise, this isn't a form. Also,please write less, no one is going to read that epistle.--Cerez365™☺ 13:03, April 22, 2011 (UTC) 1. I did criticize the article, it's about 80% of what I wrote. so obviously when you say no one will read it, you mean you're not going to read it. Either that or you didn't get past the first sentence. 2. My criticism about this page is basically that it sounds more like a forum, and a long one at that. So really? You're going to criticize my criticism of this talk page as sounding like a rambling forum, by telling me to keep it to myself because this isn't a forum? 3. An epistle? Were you reading the bible this morning or something? (talk) 13:59, April 22, 2011 (UTC)miah * I meant no one will fully read your talk page posts; your latter statement was accurate, i skimmed it. * Although article talk pages are not supposed to be a place for "forum talk" you can't be serious in criticising it. That, to me, is ridiculous as long a none of it is translated to the article. * Halleluyerrr--Cerez365™☺ 14:11, April 22, 2011 (UTC) That's an understandable point, but if I criticize it, it's because when they get so long arguing about nothing people are less likely to notice actual discussions about the article, and more likely to miss if their point has already been made. For the same reasons of length, no one wants to read all that about someone's silly theory about fire+lightning. My main point about the article though, is it simply seems like this page should be merged with the page about amaratsu, since in both the manga and anime it seems he only refered to his use of amaratsu as an enton, and his ability to manipulate it should be mentioned there. Plus I really don't like the speculative lines refering to it as an advanced chakra nature, simply because it's never been described as such. (talk) 14:21, April 22, 2011 (UTC)miah You could have avoided this whole topic if you had done your research a bit better. Everything said in the article is based on stuff we've seen in official sources. First, as pointed out already, we call it Blaze Release because Sasuke did. We call it an advanced nature because considering what we know from the manga, everything that's not the basic five, yin, or yang, is an advanced nature. We don't call Amaterasu itself a Blaze Release because it was explicitly called a Fire Release in databooks. We call shaping Amaterasu Blaze Release because shaping it was what Sasuke called Blaze Release. The "it is unknown what this nature entails" is our default sentence for showing we don't know which elements compose this nature, all other natures with unknown composition have it. No text that's out of talk pages and user sub pages suggests that blaze is composed of fire and lightning. The only thing in articles which points at that is the image in the nature transformation page, because we had to include Blaze Release somewhere, and according to what we know so far, advanced natures are made by combining basic natures, so fire and lightning, being the natures Sasuke has, is the least speculative option, and it has the question mark next to it denoting it's not a confirmed fact. Should more information be divulged about it, such as what makes it, or how it is made (if different from the mixing of basic natures), the relevant pages will be updated to reflect it. Omnibender - Talk - 17:27, April 22, 2011 (UTC) So basically you're saying it's largely based on assumption and opinion, the deciding factor as with most articles being simply whose opinion it is. The one time I heard this word used I don't remember seeing him shape anything, not even in the anime. It was just black flames on sand, so yes... that's an assumption. Just because you're basing it off the first databook calling it fire, did those databooks mention deidra was a blast element user? No? I guess that's not true then either. That's not to mention that it seems to completely avoid common sense in that moving something around has never been considered to make it a fancy new element. And yes, it's speculative to call it an unknown advanced element, because it assumes it's physically different from the black flames, and that seems to be based on nothing since I didn't see the flames do anything different when they hit someone. So yeah, I did do my research. It involved reading the one line about blaze release that absolutely never mentioned or showed it specifically refering to the ability to move the flames around. No, he never called his ability to manipulate the flames an enton. He said, I can't believe I had to block with an enton... refering, probably to the black flames you clearly see on the sand. Frankly the databooks, especially the first one, is hardly complete and unchallenged cannon. And you've still not said anything that isn't speculative youself, and frankly it doesn't make sense. And just to speculate, he probably added the name enton when he decided it was going to be able to be manipulated like a lot of other elements, just as he's been adding names to a lot of other things that didn't previously have names. (talk) 00:17, April 23, 2011 (UTC)miah Sasuke shaped the Amaterasu flames into the shield around Susanoo, and as the spikes, something C pointed out. Read those chapters again. As I said and as I'll say again: we are calling it an element because Sasuke called it an element, because the author of the series used the same naming structure that is used for many element techniques, using a new word for it. If you don't like it, send Masashi Kishimoto hate-mail, we're not the ones who made that. We still know very little on Blaze Release, and we are using the previously set rules for nature transformation. Do I like that Sasuke suddenly called it a new element? No, I don't, look at the mess it made, but I will list it because this is what we do here, we document the series. The big deal about Blaze, according to what other characters have mentioned, is the fine control Sasuke has over it. C was very specific about noticing that Sasuke creates the flames with one eye and manipulates them with the other. So until Kishimoto says Blaze was just Sasuke's fancy and boastful way of saying Fire Release, we will list it as an advanced nature. Your research then was flawed, as you obviously missed Sasuke using the term Blaze Release when using "Blaze Release: Kagutsuchi", which consists in shaping Amaterasu into spikes. Databooks are a source of information, and once more, your research is flawed, because the first databook has nothing to do with Amaterasu, which got an entry in the second databook, and was explicitly called a Fire Release in the third databook. Databooks only cover things up to the point of the story was in when they were published you know? Show me other things Sasuke named just because then. Omnibender - Talk - 00:53, April 23, 2011 (UTC) Question So I'm confused. Is Amaterasu Blaze Release, or manipulating Amaterasu Blaze Release? :From what we have so far: ::Amaterasu → Fire Release. ::Shaping Amaterasu → Blaze Release. Omnibender - Talk - 21:25, July 7, 2011 (UTC) Okay thanks. I wasn't sure and sorry I forgot to sign it. (talk) 21:32, July 7, 2011 (UTC)Joey Honestly it just seems like he's manipulating the black flames. I see how it's a kekkei genkai but that's only because it's by extension a sharingan technique but still I don't see the assumption behind it being a mixture of any other chakra nautre besides Amateratsu. I'm not saying it should be changed, but maybe modified to expalin the fact that we just don't know what it actually is or if it's even a diffrent nature to begin with the whole article sounds like one big assumption.--Hordy4040 (talk) 06:23, July 9, 2011 (UTC) : There is no assumption of it being a mixture of any other chakra nature. Sasuke simply calls it Blaze Release. We don't know why he calls it that; it could simply be that he called it that just because it sounded good to him. Perhaps in some future chapter or databook, Kishi will explain what Blaze Release does or does not entail, but right now, we know the following; # Sasuke calls it Blaze Release. # It clearly involves controlling the shape of the black flames. # It uses his right eye instead of the left one. From that, we can deduce what is on this page using common sense. Captain Jack Sparrow (Captain's Logs) 06:31, July 9, 2011 (UTC) Two in one If Blaze is an advance chakra nature, it must combine Sasuke's Lightning and Fire natures to make it. Its the only loical answer. :Countless discussions about this have been passed, and I'm sure most ended in "this is speculation." Although it is logical to some degree, we just don't know because that's not how C said it works, he said Sasuke was altering the form of the flames to use it. I'm not saying that it's wrong, as it may be true, but we don't know yet. It's speculation. Also, please sign your posts. -- (talk) 22:27, August 3, 2011 (UTC)